Multisim and Ultiboard

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forward/backward annotation

Hello,
 
I tried these features and was very suprised by the -bad- result.
 
First after having placed all my components I wanted to change my 2 connectors name from U? to X? so I did it in Multisim and forward annotate it to Ultiboard.
 
Suprise! allmost all my components where unplaced. only few resistors stayed in place .... !!!!! Why?
 
Then, after an unsuccessfull route, I wanted to invert few signals on one of the connector. the result was good about routing.
 
So I tried to backward annotate it into Multisim. The log seemed to be good but not the result!
 
The modified signal appeared as something like an RF antenna wired between each of them.... absolutely not what I expected.
 
And this on a very small board with 30 components...... how could be the result on quite complex PCB  !!??!!!
 
 
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Hello

I have tried to reproduce your problems. In the first instance I must agree the nature of multisim/ultiboard to unplace items when the details are changed is an annoying feature. This annoyance however can be minimized by the use of keep in/keep out areas and the autoplace and auto route functions. This alows boards to be replaced quickly and with minimum hassle while retaining shape design.

Your second issue was harder to reproduce as the details of your method and objectives were not totally clear. Does this problem still persist or have you worked around the software to reach a satisfactory solution?

Graham

Graham Green

Sr. Product Marketing Manager

National instruments
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Hi Graham,
 
Ok for the Keep In Place on forward annotation I'll try it but why does the Lock features not keep the component in place?
 
About backward annotation, maybe I don't use it as it should.
 
Could you please have a look at the following avi http://download.yousendit.com/21D6432A1CCB1367.
 
In this test, I just want to exchange pins 5 and 6 of the connector. and backward annotate it in Multisim.
 
The only thing I don't understand in the log concerns the modification of ScaimeE2 signal.
 
Regards,
Alain
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Right, I think I have solved your problem. Thank you for your video it was most useful.

The method you were using to back annotate from Ultiboard to Multisim was correct and after playing with the problem I found the circuitry was also correct just unhelpfully displayed.

In the process of swapping the two terminals you removed one net completely (eg.pin 5) and then recreated it when you connected it to the other(eg. pin 6) . In this way the computer had the information of what each pin was to be connected to but not being as clever as a human it could not wire them neatly and obviously on the multisim display. If you look at the nets it creates you will notice they are named correctly and so virtually connected.

For example: pin 6 is labeled "VCC" and so is virtual connected to the digital ground, though this is not apparent just by looking. To the computer this is a satisfactory result though I would agree to the user it is most confusing. The program is still somewhat in its infancy and NI hope to smooth out these usability issues soon.

The circuit is technically correct however (as you can see in the log). I would recommend manually re-wired the nets as a visual aid to users of your circuit design in the future though this is not neccessary.

I hope this is helpful for you, any more questions you have I would be happy to look into.

Graham

Graham Green

Sr. Product Marketing Manager

National instruments
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Ok Graham,
 
That's just a wire display problem but could be very confusing if the modification concerns a large number of pins.
 
But ok, the feature is here, maybe a direct line ( as before routing in Ultiboard) between the pins would be better than the actual result, it would be easier in that case for the designer to arrange the nets.
 
Regards,
Alain
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I would like to add something to this that I tried when I first got Version 10. I was trying to reverse engineer a board (I am an electronics tech and sometimes this is the only to get a schematic for a board. I already had a schematic for this one and was just testing the backannote and forward annote feature). I entered the parts into Multisim exported it to Ultoboard. I placed them on the board and run the connection from my pictorial diagram of the board. I then backannoted this to Multisim. Like this poster pointed out alll the connections were made with virtual connections instead of normal wires. The thing that troubled me more was the fact that there was a multisection component (a 4011) that only connected on pins 1,2 and 3. The rest of the pins remained unconnected.

Has anyone experience this kinda situation and is it a known issue?

Note: I don't condone reverse engineering anyones work unless it is the only way to get a schematic and effect repairs.

Kittmaster's Component Database
http://ni.kittmaster.com

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In my last post I described a back annote situation. I am going to post an example Multisim circuit for anyone to examine and try.
 
Take this circuit and transfer it to Ultiboard. Make a change to any conncected nets and connect it to any unused pin on the IC. Save the file and then try to back annote this into Multisim. What you will find is that it ignores the change. I don't know why it would ignore any changes made to a circuit on a back annote. This seems to occur only on multisection components that I am aware of.
 
If this is a know issure then let me know.
Kittmaster's Component Database
http://ni.kittmaster.com

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I have had a play with your example, unfortunatly I cannot seem to get a sucsessful outcome either when recreating your setup. I have excalated the issue to the specialists in this software within NI to see if it is a known bug with any known solutions.
 
I will get back to you as soon as I have any more information.
 
Graham
Graham Green

Sr. Product Marketing Manager

National instruments
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